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Called by Truth
Tapping the higher mind; opening to the Divine
i have a question that is specifically for those who have a strong… 
30th-Nov-2004 08:47 pm
Altered Oracle
i have a question that is specifically for those who have a strong faith in the Divine:

how would you respond to the idea that spirituality is a symptom of mental illness (one that, apparently, the majority of people in the world have in some degree), and that spiritual experiences are basically just dillusions or psychotic episodes?

please don't misconstrue...i'm a religious person myself, so i definitely don't mean this as an attack or challenge to anyone's beliefs. i just want to hear some other people's thoughts on this subject.

(cross-posted)
Comments 
30th-Nov-2004 09:32 pm (UTC)
i actually believe and also know from personal experience that it can be either.
there are distinct differences between resonating with the divine and symptoms of mental illness.
there's the many and varied cases of delusion. there are the cases of megalomania. ego or insecurity. well, actually this list could go on in many and varied ways.
i believe that there are certain fundamental universal truths/laws that either shine through clearly or 99% of the time are shaped, distorted, or proported by ill-equipt, underdeveloped minds.

i guess my answer to your question would be that spirituality is very much real and there's a vast spectrum of levels in which spirituality exists. in fact spirituality exists on every level.
as far as psychosis goes... well... hehehe it does exist within it's own tiny realm. it is something of human diagnosis which is only applicable within the tiny spectrum of human understanding and intelligence.
it has already been proven that the realm of human experience is less than one-one millionth of the infinitely vast spectrum of experience/reality.
therefore to confine spirit, which should be more dealt with in the science of physics, etc rather than psychology, into a mere psychological condition is to proclaim one's own ignorance by committing to limited terminology in the face of an infinite universe and/or also perhaps a grave misunderstanding of what exactly spirituality is.
psychosis, however does very much exist and uses the guises of many phases of "perceived" spirituality.
and certain aspects of spirituality can also be discredited by the textbook psychologist as a particular condition.
there is where universal law/truth will show the difference between these catagories to those who are in tune and have the capacity to understand it.
the tragedy is of the textbook diagnoser that states things from his limited doctrine as solid fact and soils the world mind by disallowing progress. anyways, i hope this answered your question! :)
1st-Dec-2004 12:44 am (UTC)
Wow! This is a really wise response. Thanks.

My spiritual experiences never contradict reality-- (I don't hear voices or see ghosts, for example) rather they are an intensification of reality. The colors are more vivid, my senses more acute. There is a sense of ease and flow.

Because they do not contradict reality, they cannot be "proven false." They don't happen in the realm of true and false.

I've added you to my friends list. If you write more extensively on similar topics in your LiveJournal, I'd love to read that!
1st-Dec-2004 03:11 am (UTC)
Thank you for your kind words! :)
And well said!
True that spiritual experiences can never contradict reality, because they are reality, the essence of all.
The concepts of true and false exist within the limited created spectrum of man's acceptance of his collective creation aka perceived reality.
That reality is dwarfed and shattered when in the presence of universal truth.

Yes and thank you for honoring me with your friend's list addition.
I must warn you ahead of time that my journal fluctuates between things like this and my own joy of little simple minded foolishness! :)

However if you would like to read more of what I've written along these lines, I also have a "group" on LJ called: celestial_souls
By my own rules that's pretty much all that I'm allowed to say about it.
1st-Dec-2004 07:39 am (UTC)
Your icon induces epileptic fits... ;)

Nice conversation between you and ulyart! A couple of questions for you that you may know off the top of your head:

1. Isn't the psychological term "mental illness" fairly normative, rather than absolute? Wouldn't this kind of definition kind of preclude a majority of humanity sharing it?

2. I liked your, "The concepts of true and false exist within the limited created spectrum of man's acceptance of his collective creation aka perceived reality." It has a nice ring to it. I am wondering, however, what kind of reality is not perceived? Are you limiting perception to the five senses and call things like intuition something other than perception?

I would think that, if you included the intuition among your available perceptive abilities, and if we could start comparing notes on this set of experiences, perhaps we could extend true and false and scientific method to a much greater share of reality than one one-millionth. (Is this a real number, by the way--if so, how was it quantified?)
1st-Dec-2004 08:10 am (UTC)
hehehe thanks!
responding in order:
I do rather enjoy the chaotic order that my icon suggests (atleast it does to me! :P) I made using pictures of atoms, hurricanes, planets, a closeup of jupiter's red spot,the sun, galaxies, and the virgo supercluster. so you get the idea of the common movement from the micro to the macro. :)

1.) Well yes, more or less that's true as far as I know. However, even if it included all of humanity (which I think it does) it is still small and limited in comparison to the true and vast definition of spirit which permiates All.

2.)It not so much an argument of what is not perceived but rather what is perceived collectively that provides a common thread for human experience. Intuition has been often known in esoteric circles as the sixth sense. I, myself concur except that I refuse to number our senses. We are beings far more complex than even we realize and to state that we only have 5 or 6 senses is to rob ourselves of a greater understanding and awareness of human experience. Perception is far different from intuition. Intuition speaks to us in a subconscious language of feelings, and imagery in order to guide us into better situations and to avoid detrimental ones. Perception is what our conscious mind does with those recordings of data, feelings and imagery. Intuition sends you the data gathered from the "environment" and perception does it's best to try and process the data into a language that the individual's conscious awareness can grasp.

the less than one-one millionth number was assessed by scientist by virtue of the invention of the electro-charged magnetic spectrum and quite frankly, i myself belioeve that to be still a very generous fraction, All things considered! ;)

1st-Dec-2004 09:47 am (UTC)
"Intuition sends you the data gathered from the 'environment' and perception does its best to try and process the data into a language that the individual's conscious awareness can grasp."

Well said. I am finding few people that can see the intersubjectivity/language/conscious-awareness connection. Perhaps it is human language, and not human perception, that is limited to one one-millionth (or much less) of experience? Of course, one has to be mindful of language when talking about language--for instance, what is the relationship between a percept and a concept? I think the fundamental difference is one of language. Kind of a "if you can't say it, you don't really know it" thing, if you mean what I know.

If you have a link or a book recommendation of that scientist who used the electro-charged magnetic spectrum to quantify sensory experience, I would love to have it!

Cheers.
2nd-Dec-2004 06:45 am (UTC)
i believe that a percept is more of a grasper or translator.
and a concept is more of an active creator.
conceiving takes the data from perceiving and proactively creates more advanced ideas based upon the knowledge of the established data.
i will get back to with some sort of reference as far as a book or link is concerned! :)

for the record i must edit myself a little.
I must correct my terminology a little though. I actually meant to say: "electromagnetic charged spectrum!" sorry... i'm usually still a little foggy at these hours. i also shouldve replaced the word "invention" with "discovery"
2nd-Dec-2004 12:35 am (UTC)
oh and by the way, sometimes if you're not reading previous things of mine and you simply have a pressing related question or issue, please feel free to ask about it.
the information flows through me all the time. i'm just a vessel for it. :)
cheers! :)
1st-Jan-2005 08:07 pm (UTC)
i think that failing to connect with spirit in one's life is one of the surest ways to dull a person into true insanity. contemporary american culture's definition of crazy is very lame, if you ask me. if people don't fit into a certain mold, they are branded crazy by society. but when it comes to spirituality, i believe that the people who fit the mold without bothering to question it first are the insane ones. then again, maybe they are just on a path which i have trouble understanding.
9th-Jan-2005 04:13 am (UTC)
What do you mean by 'just delusions or psychotic episodes'?
31st-Jul-2005 12:17 pm (UTC)
it seems i have read that the same regions of the brain are active in mystical and schizophrenic experiences. i have no idea where i saw this information. it is interesting to me, and it may have well been in the context of linking creativity and mental "illness." it's fascinating to wonder if the insane, the artistic, and the mystical are linked, that maybe in these experiences we break down some walls that exist in our minds. they aren't "bad" walls, maybe, but are necessary for us to function. (as poignant and illuminating as many of my own experiences have been, i'd be a raving lunatic if i maintained that state very long.)
okay- that said, i think i'll actually go join the community:)
14th-Sep-2005 08:47 am (UTC)
That's the rational perspective finally validating the veracity of religious experience. Yay divine madness!
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